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curious a friend recommended this website to me:
http://www.leerburg.com
now, I know what works with my dog and am not looking to me judged on my methods. I'm just curious how people in this community feel about his methods. it's a sociology question more than anything. :)
August 31 2004, 15:11:35 UTC 7 years ago
August 31 2004, 15:23:16 UTC 7 years ago
ed is a little pushy... but he does tell it like it is. I can't say I disagree with him the majority of the time. I DEFINITELY agree with him on the dog park thing, especially after I visited one with my dog. nothing bad happened, but I certainly saw the potential and it made me nervous. surprisingly, the worst offender was an owner with an extremely agressive GSD. one of those "oh, no no, pookie, don't do that" types. *eyeroll*
August 31 2004, 15:40:22 UTC 7 years ago
BTW, I added you to my AIM list...I'm VTLadyhawke on there too...are you away or something? I messaged you and you didn't answer...
August 31 2004, 15:52:13 UTC 7 years ago
yeah, with the aggressive dogs I might start using Ed's method of throwing them down and then kicking them. LOL ok, I have to admit, that particular technique (for dogs that jump up) made me say "wtf?" on the other hand, I did notice that wrestling with Phoenix, including letting her charge at me and be thrown off, and never letting her win, has made her far more obedient in general.
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August 31 2004, 16:41:52 UTC 7 years ago
to add to the dog park talk...
We've been to the dog park near our home a billion times and have only had one thing happen, and our dog wasn't even involved (she loves to run and wrestle but she definitely isn't a fighter). The funny thing is, it was one of those doggy spats where they growl and nip and don't really fight fight. It was the owners who freaked out and started arguing.Whats really funny is that a guy brought a dog to the park once and was playing ball and got all butthurt when the dog came over to be petted by us and play with our dog. I'm like, yaaaaah dog park buddy, if you want all the attention play ball with the dog in your house.
People are silly.
August 31 2004, 18:20:02 UTC 7 years ago
Re: to add to the dog park talk...
like I said, I've never had a personal bad experience. two of my friends take their 3 dogs ALL the time. I can see what Ed Frawley is saying about it being a recipe for disaster. When I took my dog there, and there were about a dozen dogs very definitely running in a pack, it made me very nervous. Combine that with his articles on breaking up a dog fight, and I REALLY wouldn't take my dog to one. Considering all the "pookins, please stop" owners there, I KNOW none of them know how to break up a fight.August 31 2004, 19:17:58 UTC 7 years ago
He apparently knows police dogs but he doesn't know people or psychology or pretty much anything but his ego.
"Level 10" correction for failure to sit...bah...
August 31 2004, 19:54:52 UTC 7 years ago
He's an extremist, and tends towards the Kohler method of dog training, which in my opinion is simply too harsh. I don't go with Machiavelli's belief that if you cannot lead through love, fear will work just as well. I want my dogs to work happy.
Frawley is an egoist, and thinks he's the god of Shepherds. :P Take him with a grain of salt the size of Mars.
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September 4 2004, 09:51:07 UTC 7 years ago
Anonymous *Mod note*
I'm perfectly fine with anonymous posts on this group, I have a few people that frequent here that do not have LJ accounts, I think it's wonderful.
A few notes though, for the first time in a long time I had to delete two comments. If you have questions as to why, please Email me directly ( Lady_blackwolf@hotmail.com ) and I'll be happy to explain in detail. For everyone here, I do NOT take kindly to people coming on my group and cursing, flaming, and down right being rude... I certainly don't take kindly to it when it's some Anonymous poster doing it. Steve, I don't believe this post in question was done by you, but if it were, please curb the language/attacks in the future (if you have no clue what I'm talking about then it wasn't you). Boots I deleted your reply simply because there was no need for it after the offending post being deleted... no need to feed the trolls, hopefully you do understand?
I would like if Anonymous posters here would, in the very least, sign a name at the bottom of the comment (doesn't have to be a real name, could be a screen name, just be consistent so we know who you are). I don't want to have to remove the anonymous poster feature because of a few bad apples.
I will be making an "official" post about this later, implementing a few new rules *Frown* I was hoping I wouldn't have to.
Anonymous
September 6 2004, 15:35:14 UTC 7 years ago
Emperor Frawley Has No Clothes...
Please consider the following:- Ed charges $2,500 per pup. (Correct me if I'm wrong). Ed is selling Volkswagons and calling them Porsches. Need proof? None of the top Schutzhund competitors buy dogs from him. They never have and they never will. In contrast, uneducated buyers who are attracted to his alleged "tell it like it is," style buy into his garbage as fast as they can.
- Ed has been breeding "working dogs" for 30 years. However, none of his breedings have EVER won ANY national working dog events. Don't you find this curious? In fact, nothing from his breedings HAVE EVER even placed within the top 10 at national events. (Again, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe I am.)
- Ed claims that he can't control the success people have with his dogs, after they take them home. This may be true... but after 30 years, you'd surely have SOMETHING to show for it, in the competitive arena. Compare him to what someone like Ivan Balabanov has done:
http://www.malinois.com/otvitosha/accomp
... and Ivan hasn't been "breeding top working dogs" for nearly as long as Ed has.
I don't mean to hold up Ivan in comparison to Ed (because there is no comparison) but I wish to point out that Ivan is a guy who walks the walk and talks the talk. Ed is just a guy who makes videos and sells over-priced dogs.
- Ed will have you believe that all top competitors buy their dogs from Europe, already trained. This simply isn't true. I can cite numberous examples (see Ivan, above for one) ... And even if they did, you'd think that in 30 years he'd be able to produce at least ONE TOP LEVEL competitor.
- In 30 years of breeding working dogs, Ed has never placed in any national working dog event, has he? Those who train and breed, can. Those who can't, just breed and make videos of other people training. Tell ya what? Do you want a good dog? Then buy it from the person who trains and breeds.
Shooter McGavin.
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September 8 2004, 15:50:16 UTC 7 years ago
Re: Anonymous *Mod note*
Why don't you turn on IP logging? That will at least clear up the confusion of knowing whether different anonymous posts are coming from the same person. And can't you ban by IP if someone continues to be a problem?Just a thought, I've never moderated a board or a LJ comm before. :)
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September 22 2004, 00:36:35 UTC 7 years ago
The Voodoo (Forged) Hit Counters
Hello :)I would like to address/discuss/debate *ONE* single issue. HIT COUNTERS!
Yes indeed, hit counters.
Voodoo Louie Castle has repeatedly accused me of:
(a) forging hit counters
(b) not HAVING hit counters
(c) stating incorrect information about these non-existant forged hit counters.
Would anyone on this message system be so kind as to resolve this ONE SINGLE issue? Help get this critically important issue totally under control, once and for all?
The "forged, non-existant" hit counters in question are located at the web address below.
They can be tested as follows:
(a) click on the link
(b) choose ANY name on the menu
(c) choose ANY page to view
(d) don't even bother reading, simply PAGEDOWN to the very bottom of the page
(e) note if a secretive, mysterious, magical, forged, non-existant hit counter happens to appear in gold numbers (it may be voodoo, so watch it very carefully for 3 seconds or more)
(f) try and determine if the hit counter is a real, genuine, bonafide, certified, glorified hit counter - this can be done by reloading the page.
The page link is
http://www.sl-prokeys.com/wffcw/index.h
WARNING: This may be a dangerous mission because there is SO much Voodoo on that website. Only the very strongest of temperaments should even attempt this mission. There is no guarantee anyone can escape the Voodoo spells located there. Many have tried, and many have failed.
Thank you for your bravery!
Best,
Steve (Forgery) Leigh
September 22 2004, 03:20:55 UTC 7 years ago
Re: The Voodoo (Forged) Hit Counters
(f) try and determine if the hit counter is a real, genuine, bonafide, certified, glorified hit counter - this can be done by reloading the page.LMAO! funny, no matter how many times I click reload, it doesn't change.
1) if it did, all that would prove is that you can beef up your own hit counters by sitting there reloading your own page. after reading all this nonsense, I have no doubt that you would do such a thing.
2)since it doesn't change, that shows that a) you don't really understand how hit counters work, or b) it's fake.
I'm not taking sides here, but I'd just like to point something out to you Mr Steve Leigh. One thing we all must grant Mr Castle is that, whether or not there is truth in his words, he is waaaaaaaaaaaay better at debating than you. tip from a psych major (would you like to see my diploma?) as soon as you started slinging "nicknames" and insults and using CAPS, people stop reading. since mr castle lines out his arguments in detailed, calm, logical fashion without excessive punctuation or CAPS and few, if any, insults, people are much more likely to believe what he is saying and far less likely to believe what you are saying. this is not debating truth to your words, this is a simple fact of psychology: he IS making you look crazy. you might want to think about that. I have stopped reading both sides (as the original poster, every comment is emailed to me) but I can assure you I stopped reading yours long before I stopped reading his simply because yours are so difficult to follow. same thing with the famous website. hard to read, easy to laugh at what looks to be the rants of a nutjob with too much time on his hands. like I said, you just might want to consider these things if you want to convince rational people of what you are trying to say.
I'm not going to argue this point with you, Mr Leigh. I'm just saying that a lot of us are enjoying this "discussion" and it would be a lot more enjoyable with less crazy nitpicking about counters and word usage and more conversation about *gasp* dog training.
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September 22 2004, 06:35:41 UTC 7 years ago
Voodoo
I think Mr. Voodoo Castle is very smart. I've personally seen his dogs, and I think that he is an absolute genius for being smart enough to NOT bring them to any seminar that he does. It is no wonder that he is not involved with training in his own unit. Voodoo's integrity is a sad statement of the police forces in the U.S., and it is people like him that give police officers a very bad name. Thanks for the website Mr. Leigh.September 23 2004, 14:04:21 UTC 7 years ago
Re: Voodoo
Someone too cowardly to sign his post wrote: I've personally seen his dogsLC: I'm quite sure that if you have seen my dogs, which is doubtful, you saw my pets. I'm quite sure that you've never seen any of the dogs I've trained for police work or SAR or personal protection. My own pets do basic OB and that's all they've ever needed. If you *have* seen any of the working dogs I've trained let us know when it was and which ones they were and what you thought were their shortcomings.
LC: People who have come out to training have always commented quite favorably about the ability, intensity and control of my dogs.
That same coward wrote: , and I think that he is an absolute genius for being smart enough to NOT bring them to any seminar that he does.
LC: I wonder what you think that bringing my own dogs to a seminar would accomplish? There are many people who are excellent trainers with their own dogs but can't communicate what they do to others or can't work with dogs that have different levels and balances of drives from their own dogs. In fact watching a trainer with his own dog can be completely misleading. You have no way of knowing if he actually did the work. He might have obtained the dog completely trained and just be maintaining the training! When I'm teaching at a seminar, the *only* thing that's important is how well I'm able to get the dog's of the attendees to work; how well those dogs respond to my training methods. I offer a money-back guarantee to anyone who's not satisfied with my seminars. So far no on has asked.
The coward wrote: It is no wonder that he is not involved with training in his own unit.
LC: There's no need to wonder. Every position on my department rotates on a specific time schedule, except the Chief's. Most of them are 3 years, but in K-9's the handler can stay for the working life of the dog which averages about five years. After my dog retired I managed to stay involved in the K-9 unit by doing the in-house training for about 15 years after I rotated out. Then I was injured and could no longer do the training.
The coward continued: Voodoo's integrity is a sad statement of the police forces in the U.S., and it is people like him that give police officers a very bad name.
LC: My department disagrees. I worked just about every assignment available on a medium size police department, except motors. They included Patrol, FTO (Field Training Officer), FTO Supervisor, SWAT, vice, narcotics, detectives, traffic, SIT (Special Investigation Team, investigating excessive force complaints, shootings and other alleged wrongdoing) Rangemaster, administration and, of course, K9's.
LC: But if you have any evidence of anything other than the highest degree of integrity on my part, PLEASE take it to my department and allow them to investigate it. If you think they can't do a thorough job, take it to the FBI, the Justice Department or any other agency you think can handle it. I welcome any such challenge.
Regards,
Lou Castle, Los Angeles, CA
Uncllou@aol.com
For training articles go to www.loucastle.com
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September 24 2004, 10:15:51 UTC 7 years ago
Re: Voodoo
I would just like to interject here - and i am keeping my name anonymous - the last thing i want is to be stalked by this freak who calls himself steve leigh for the next 3 years.Steve get help! You show clssic signs of mental illness. no dougt you are responsible for a number of unsolved serial murders across the states. No one cares about your miserably pathetic site - NO ONE CARES - NOT ONE - except you but i wouldnt regard you as human. I took a look and didnt laugh once and ive got a hell of a sence of humour, i just felt sorry for the owner. I really cant believe that you have devoted the last 3 years of your life to this - most people try to do something positive with their lifes - your just one sad negative motherf****. probably quite literally!
And Lou, you have yourself to blame for these battles and his stalking you - well not really, but you keep his interest in you alive by engaging him in these battles - just ignore him completly. So what if hes got a website belittling you with propaganda, do you really think anybody on this earth would pay any real attention to it. NO. All you do when you reply to him is feed him. Just be like he doesnt exist - he'll get bored - this may take a while judging by how mentally fuck** up he seems to be. Anyway good luck in shaking this turd off - and beleive me thats all he is a smelly piece of turd, the kind you tread in and it takes a while to scrape of your shoe, the smell lingers for a while but it goes eventually.
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September 25 2004, 15:11:16 UTC 7 years ago
Trust and Respect
I've often come across bad relationships between dogs and their handlers. Dogs that were afraid of their handlers and handlers that were afraid of their dogs. Some trainers are still stuck in the old mode that you must dominate the dog at all times. They teach their handlers that you must be very physical with the dog and kick his ass at least once a day to remind him who is in charge of the team.I believe that the relationship between the dog and handler should be one of mutual trust and respect. The dog should regard the handler as a fair and just leader. This is the relationship that exists in the wild within a dog pack and it doesn't happen by the alpha dog kicking anyone's ass, especially not on a regular basis. A dog may need it once in a while but only because of an all out attack on the handler.
One thing I sometimes do at both PSD (Police Service Dog) and civilian seminars is to have the handlers walk out into a field with the dog on leash and then, when the dog's attention is elsewhere, have the handler lie down, flat on his back on the ground. I've had some handlers refuse saying that their dog won't regard them as alpha if they allow their dog to stand over them. I've had some dogs try to burrow their way underneath the handler because they suddenly found themselves in the alpha position and freaked out, anticipating an asskicking.
Yet this is where do most fights end up. Both the officer or civilian and the crook go to the ground. Think about being the type of handler who has kicked his dog's ass six times a week. Now suddenly the handler is on the ground fighting with a crook, who by the way, has never hurt the dog. Do you think that the dog might just decide that this is the day that he gets to be the alpha in the pack? Sometimes handlers get bitten by their own dogs out of confusion. But often it's that the dog realizes that he may have an advantage and tries to make the most of it.
There are police training schools where as many as half of the handlers are bitten by the dogs in the first two weeks. This is usually because handlers are cranking hard corrections on dogs that don't respect or trust them. It usually takes a bit of time to get such a relationship. But these handlers are victims of a system that only lets them attend a school for a few weeks before getting back to police work. And so they find themselves rushed. But the real problem is with the trainers at these schools who think it's macho when a handler gets bit by his dog and stands up to it. They sometimes have "beer-buying-penalties" for getting bitten by your own dog.
I've never had a dog bite his handler, except out of confusion (where the dog confused his handler with the suspect, not confusion invoked on a training field) because I believe that before training starts and throughout their relationship there should be a bond of respect and trust.
I think the fastest way to get this is with play and food. I like for the handler to hand feed his dog all his meals for a few weeks. In the wild the alpha chooses where to hunt and which animal to kill. I think that hand feeding, providing the dog's food, equates to that. I think it helps to establish the bond that exists naturally.
This is NOT food reward training. This is simply the handler providing the food for the dog. If the handler just puts down food and walks away, yes he's provided food but after that he's out of it. Hand feeding keeps the dog a part of this form of communication as long as the food lasts. And with every handful the dog is reminded that the handler is alpha. Food goes to a very basic level.
Play is another way to get this but not the form of play that has the handler throwing a ball for his dog. Watch the Discovery Channel or spend a few hours at the zoo watching wild dogs play. They run, they bump shoulders, they throw hips into one another. Their interaction is quite physical. I recommend this form of play to my handlers.
Dominance is quite easy to establish with yielding exercises but this post is long enough already.
Regards,
Lou Castle, Los Angeles, CA
Uncllou@aol.com
For training articles go to www.loucastle.com
September 26 2004, 23:45:12 UTC 7 years ago
Re: Trust and Respect - Voodoo style
Dominance is quite easy to establish with yielding exercises but this post is long enough already.Yes indeed it is.
Look at all those words .....
Anonymous
September 27 2004, 13:03:17 UTC 7 years ago
Re: Trust and Respect
In dog training, when you truley know what you are talking about, you no longer feel the need to talk about it.Shut up and train.
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September 27 2004, 14:15:50 UTC 7 years ago
Re: Trust and Respect
Can i ask as to what post this was a response to Lou? It Just seems like a bit of a random post!?7 years ago
October 3 2004, 02:21:48 UTC 7 years ago
LC: Steve keep in mind that you're the one with the obsession, not me. You're not important enough for me to remember when things happened, hence the "about" and "several" qualifications anytime I write about things that have occurred between us. You on the other hand have kept files about these interactions and refer back to them because you have no life without me. When I write about my own career, you're not important enough for me to go back and look up the exact dates that things happened.
Steve wrote: I don't care anything about your "qualifications" Louie, and never did.
LC: I've supplied my qualifications anytime I've been asked. Most recently was when you asked me to prove that I'd done my seminars and I quickly supplied half a dozen email address of people who put then on for people who were interested to contact. I then asked for yours. No response from you, as usual. As to your qualifications all that exist are claims and no information or references to back them up. So it's logical to assume that they don't exist. I've invited anyone who cares to check to phone my department and ask.
Steve wrote: All your claims simply prove that at VERY best, you might have been a part time trainer while you were on completely unrelated assignments.
LC: Small and medium sized police departments don't have full time trainers Steve. Yet more evidence that you have no idea of what you're talking about. Another poster replied to your nonsense and had more knowledge about it than you do; this with all your claims of having trained police dogs. One would think that you'd have more insight, but it's obvious that you have none. Just as with your imagined qualifications.
LC: You've never done a thing or you would have supplied your references long ago. Some buddy of yours in Europe that you want me to call isn't going to cut it.
LC: Supply the names, dates and titles of dogs that you've titled and the organization that you've titled them under and you might have some credibility. Supply the names and contact people that you've trained police dogs for and you might have some credibility. Without that, all we have is your demented ramblings.
LC: Is the valium still calling to you Steve? Is it still trying to "climb out of the bottle?" I think you need to increase your dose.
LC: To add to your credibility I'd suggest that people do go take a look at your website. Of particular interest is the section where you detail your plans for suicide. http://www.sl-prokeys.com/peaceful/peac
LC: Oh, and BTW I'll be out of town teaching at a seminar so won't be able to reply to your insanity for a week or so. Actually it's a two part seminar. The first part I'm teaching "Building Searches for SAR and LE" and then I'm doing an Ecollar seminar. That will bring the total to 21 seminars. Have fun without me!
Regards,
Lou Castle, Los Angeles, CA
Uncllou@aol.com
For training articles go to www.loucastle.com
October 4 2004, 19:23:27 UTC 7 years ago
That's why you state when things happened, because they're not important. :)
LC: you have no life without me
I'm trying my best, Voodoo Louie. ROFLMAO .... but I had no life WITH you! Maybe you meant "strife".
LC: When I write about my own career
LOL - so THAT'S what it's called! My, what a choice of words ..............
LC: I've supplied my qualifications anytime I've been asked
Nobody really cares, except maybe Donald Duck or Mickey Mouse.
LC: when you asked me to prove that I'd done my seminars and I quickly supplied half a dozen email address
LOL - I asked you to prove they were happy. I don't want their addresses.
LC: I then asked for yours. No response from you, as usual.
That's too bad, Voodoo. But it's another Voodoo babbling contradiction, as you'll see in a minute.
LC: Some buddy of yours in Europe that you want me to call isn't going to cut it.
ROFLMAO - you're getting so much better at forgetting, Voodoo. You wrote that *you'd* pay for the international phone calls, so you could check my background. You also generously mentioned "no bonus, no new car".
( Look at "You started it!" whines Voodoo Louie:" on the Malinois Attack page of the WFFCW. http://www.sl-prokeys.com/wffcw/vl_atta
Obviously, now it's wrong to supply a number, and wrong _not_ to supply a number. Life's rough!
LC: Is the valium still calling to you Steve? Is it still trying to "climb out of the bottle?" I think you need to increase your dose.
Apparently you also believe you're a doctor. ROFLMAO You worked the "Medical" department on your famous police assignments, too, I guess, while you weren't training all those K9s during "your career".
LC: Oh, and BTW
LOL! "Oh and BTW?" - sorry man, you make me laugh. You bail out, it isn't 60 minutes until your next bucket of babble hits the screen. Hahaha ... we KNOW who's obsessed. You been this way for years, and you'll never change, Louie. You'll keep at it, but you'll never win. "Keep typin' Louie!"
LC: I'll be out of town teaching at a seminar so won't be able to reply to your insanity for a week or so
I think you really mean a day. No way on earth are you going away from a computer where you can make strife and dissention for any WEEK. I believe that by TWO weeks, you'd be in a straight jacket.
LC: Actually it's a two part seminar. The first part I'm teaching "Building Searches for SAR and LE" and then I'm doing an Ecollar seminar. That will bring the total to 21 seminars. Have fun without me!
Sounds exciting! Absolutely delightful! ROFLMAO - (it's 10/3 at about 3pm EST - I wonder if Voodoo will supply more contradictions in under 8 hours?)
Steve Leigh
http://www.sl-prokeys.com/wffcw/index.h
7 years ago
June 18 2008, 01:11:34 UTC 3 years ago
Where did Voodoo go?
Alive and well.www.sl-prokeys.com/wffcw
June 18 2008, 01:29:49 UTC 3 years ago
Re: Where did Voodoo go?
oh lord, seriously? 4 years later I've grown out of the internet wars. LOL